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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:28 am 
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Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:34 am
Posts: 8
I certainly think lightweight carbon clinchers can be a very good option for a variety of cycling situations. However , if riding involves prolonged descending and braking, one could make a strong argument for considering a different brake surface than carbon. Tubulars is of course another excellent option, albeit with some drawbacks, unless one has excellent support during a bike trip. There is always a place for good wheels, regardless of composition. Just choose wisely.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:44 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:07 pm
Posts: 64
Wow!!! When people talk about carbon clincher's delaminating i expected a few ripples on the brake track, not the entire rim falling apart.

When decending on tubs, for example an alpine or pyrenean mountain can delamination occur on tubular carbon rims?

Also am i right in thinking the only drawbacks of a carbon tubular rim are:
1) braking may become grabby when the rim becomes too hot
2)the heat may melt/soften the tubular glue
3) lack of braking power if decending in rain

I know this depends on your weight, decending ability and wheel brand, but in principle am i correct. The wheels in question are campy hyperon 2 tub.

Many thanks


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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:44 pm 


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:25 pm 
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My point of a drawback, mainly has to do with dealing with a flat, when you are out riding in an area where help is not readily available. Such as when on a bike trip in a foreign country. Tubulars deal with heat dissemination differently then clinchers, hence delamination is less of a risk, although it can happen. Braking efficiency is less than on comparable aluminum rims. Although today's pros seem to handle the braking pretty well. Also see excellent article in todays VeloNews.com regarding carbon clinchers.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:03 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:25 am
Posts: 4453
Location: Canada
Holy! That is unreal. I'm glad the rider wasn't badly hurt.

@gb103, tubular wheels have been used in professional racing in the mountains for many years now. They have been proven appropriate for those conditions.

I suspect that the carbon clincher didn't just 'delaminate', rather, it looks like it was blown apart by an over-heated clincher. That is the problem with carbon clinchers. Tubulars do not have that problem. The glue does not overheat. The tubulars do not burst due to overheating.

With respect to being 'grabby', that is a problem of carbon wheels generally. Cork pads help with that problem a bit (for good weather, though). You can also get Kevlar braking surfaces on ADA wheels, which are better, too.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:19 pm 
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in the industry
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Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:47 pm
Posts: 98
eric wrote:
[...]Surprising to see foam core construction in $6000 wheels.

For all those who wonder about "cheap" foam in expensive composite parts => http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandwich-structured_composite

Concerning the pictures: keep in mind that the wheel was damaged during riding, so it is very hard to evaluate just with the help of a picture what caused the accident and what was caused by the accident!
The shown wheel was out of production 08/2010. Every wheel comes with clearly visible stickers that tell you to carefully read the manual. Appropriate warnings were posted beginning with the first clincher manual!

btw.: nice to see this issue here in the forum, for sure only to warn people of the danger caused by carbon clinchers! :wink:

_________________
Andreas Schiwy, CarbonSports GmbH
http://www.lightweight.info
support[at]lightweight.info


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:40 pm 
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Location: Wherever there's a mountain beckoning to be climbed
A little off-topic, but since Andreas apparently didn't see it over in the thread New SwissStop Carbon Pads, has CarbonSports made a determination yet as to use of SwissStop Black Prince pads on Lightweight wheels? Feel free to reply in that thread. Thanks.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:33 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:46 pm
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eric wrote:
The pics are tiny.

Surprising to see foam core construction in $6000 wheels.

Why? the foam core rules. the wheels are quiet, not cheap sounding echo chambers like the Enves I used to ride.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:24 pm 
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For clarification, in regards to the posting by Carbonsports GmbH. while descending in heavy rain, the wheel delaminated and inner tube exploded. By luck, and the fact I was not going that fast, I was able to come to a complete standstill without the bike ever touching the ground. Therefore no chance the accident caused any damage seen on pics. Based on conversations with friends in the bike industry in Britain, Germany and France, I believe this type of delamination is not that uncommon with the particular type of Lightweight clinchers I rode. Let's hope the My 2013's do not have the same issue. Just to be extra safe however, this summer in the Dolomitis I am riding on alloy wheels.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:39 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:28 pm
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CarbonSportsGmbH wrote:
The shown wheel was out of production 08/2010.


I don't understand the relevance of this. Are you saying that 2010 clinchers are more prone to delamination than current production models?


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:19 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 12, 2007 3:40 am
Posts: 411
Location: Triange, NC
gravlax wrote:
For clarification, in regards to the posting by Carbonsports GmbH. while descending in heavy rain, the wheel delaminated and inner tube exploded. By luck, and the fact I was not going that fast, I was able to come to a complete standstill without the bike ever touching the ground. Therefore no chance the accident caused any damage seen on pics. Based on conversations with friends in the bike industry in Britain, Germany and France, I believe this type of delamination is not that uncommon with the particular type of Lightweight clinchers I rode. Let's hope the My 2013's do not have the same issue. Just to be extra safe however, this summer in the Dolomitis I am riding on alloy wheels.


Riding alloy wheels during long descents, wet or dry is a very good idea. In fact I want alloys during any mountain riding. I just don't see any significant advantage of carbon given the robust construction and relative light weight alloy clinchers available today (eg; Shimano DA C24's). Yes, carbon wheels may carry a few grams less weight but they also carry risks - not the least of which is relative poor braking.

I don't believe any carbon wheel is immune to possible delamination due to the intense spot heating effect and resulting shear forces generated within the composite structure (including any core material like foam). Cores of foam or honeycomb do add structural integrity however, these cores are generally bonded to the laminate and this junction itself is subject to shear forces during heating (see the article posted by Carbonsports above).

It would be nice if Carbonsports provided information on the testing that they subject their wheels to in order for customers to better educated and able to make the decision whether the risks of carbon wheels are worth the staggeringly high price.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:00 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:02 am
Posts: 69
I have owned my Standard C's for about 3 years now, with very little use (the weather in the UK is so bad, even in the summer months!). I took my bike (with the Lightweights) to Italy this May and when cleaning the wheels after my first ride I noticed an area approximately 2.5cm along the braking surface which was very soft - I recon if I pushed with any force it would have broken through.

A friend of mine who lives in Germany was on holiday with me and he immediately put the wheel in his car, promising to send them to CarbonSports when he got home.

I have just heard that the verdict of CarbonSports is that the wheel is not repairable and they have offered me 30% off a new wheel. Is this reasonable? It's not my fault that the braking surface is faulty. I know it's out of warranty, but should I spend a huge amount of money (even with discount) buying a wheel which is prone to this kind of fault?


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