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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:45 pm 
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Formerly known as wassertreter

Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:08 am
Posts: 1928
Location: Pedal Square
fdegrove wrote:
One can't help but admire the brave.

Please explain.
I get around one flat per year. So when that happens, i try to seal it with the Vittoria. If that works, i can top up with the cartridge, and limp home.
If it doesn't seal, i put on the spare, and inflate with the cartridge. That always works. So 2 shots at getting the flat fixed. For something that's happening only with a double-digit number of months in between, that's good enough.

Maybe i need to carry more stuff when trying Vittoria tubs instead of Contis soon :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:00 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:25 am
Posts: 4452
Location: Canada
@n808, the funny thing is that tubulars are not at all analogous to your turntable example. Rather, the tubular tire has yet to be equalled by 'new' technology (which is why it is still the only real choice for racing).

I am the first to admit that there are lots of superlatives bandied about regarding the mythic 'feel' of tubulars. The reason is that it is hard to explain and really does have to be experienced. In my view, the reason for the different feel comes down to the construction of the tubular system: a structural fabric casing surrounding a pneumatic tube and surmounted by a rubber tread, all adhered to a soft-shouldered rim bed by glue.

Because the tubular tire does not rely upon the rim to mechanically fasten it, it does without the high and sharp bead hooks that clinchers have and, at the same time, eliminates the requirement for a stiff, structural tire sidewall to house the bead. Accordingly, the tubular tire can be reliably run at much lower pressures than can a clincher tire without the same risk of pinch-flatting. In good condition, I run tubulars at between 90-110 psi, maximum, for the road. In the rain, I will run them up to 10psi lighter. In addition, the 'soft' sidewalls of a tubular tire let's it 'roll' over the road more smoothly (which is the reason that tubulars are faster in the real world than they appear on magazine tests that use steel rollers as the test medium). These factors all contribute to the superior 'feel'.

For me, the elimination of pinch-flatting means that tubulars simply do not flat (admittedly, this is down to your local riding conditions - we have no cactus and Crown-sponsored bottle recycling).

Do yourself a favor and try tubulars. Life is too short to ride clinchers...


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Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:00 pm 


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:14 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:09 pm
Posts: 97
Location: Seattle, WA | Gjøvik, Norway
Geoff: thanks for the very well thought out explanation! What you write makes a lot of sense. And also thanks for the other replies.

I still think there's some likeness to analog vinyl in that the extra care and work that's needed does add to the enjoyment of riding on the finished wheel, in addition to its technical virtues detailed in your answer.

Back when I was riding tubulars I knew of no other experience, then I had a several year break in road riding until I got my road bike here in the U.S. so I could not really compare. The exception is when I visit Norway, but that's frequently for Christmas, so I can only ride my Reynolds 753 tubed Eddy Merckx on rollers. Hopefully I'll be able to take a trip back home this summer and do some real tubular riding.

Thanks!

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:24 pm 
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Tubbie Guru

Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 2:20 am
Posts: 5784
Location: Belgium
Hi,

Quote:
I still think there's some likeness to analog vinyl in that the extra care and work that's needed does add to the enjoyment of riding on the finished wheel, in addition to its technical virtues detailed in your answer.


You can even throw in a couple of vacuum tubes and a glass of fine Scottish single malt for me too.

Ciao, ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:46 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 7:28 pm
Posts: 605
I think if you're riding 130PSI regardless of tubular or clincher, you're doing it wrong.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:59 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:32 pm
Posts: 56
fdegrove wrote:
Hi,

Quote:
I still think there's some likeness to analog vinyl in that the extra care and work that's needed does add to the enjoyment of riding on the finished wheel, in addition to its technical virtues detailed in your answer.


You can even throw in a couple of vacuum tubes and a glass of fine Scottish single malt for me too.

Ciao, ;)


Extra care, for sure!
But vinyl sounds better too.

(My Audio Research VT60 just abandoned me ...
Had to switch to a DIY Push-Pull 6V6 amp.
Sounds nice too.)

c*


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:47 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:19 pm
Posts: 10
Ha! My main stereo system is tube preamp and amp, though I use a solid state (but legendary) phono stage. Due to their construction, tubulars posses a ride quality advantage over clinchers that cannot be overcome. YMMV but for me, over the years, the inconvenience of tubs has had me go from riding them all the time (Wolber Invulnerable steel (!) belted tubs for training - anyone remember those?) to only using them on race wheels. Tubular ride quality is magical.

Sony PS-2250 (vintage TT aimed at broadcast market)
Kenwood L02-C used as phono stage
Audible Illusions L1 preamp
Rogue 80 amp
Osborne Eclipse speakers
Yamaha CDX-2020 used as transport
Ack dAck DAC


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:34 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:52 am
Posts: 223
kulivontot wrote:
I think if you're riding 130PSI regardless of tubular or clincher, you're doing it wrong.
Or you may be a Tour de France rider...


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:46 am 
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Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 7:28 pm
Posts: 605
In the 80's maybe


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 4:41 am 
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Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:25 am
Posts: 4452
Location: Canada
No, not even 80's-vintage Tour riders.

Oh, wait a sec. Were you talking about the Kenwood?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:26 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:52 am
Posts: 223
He says pros go 147psi (10 bar) for TTs.
http://www.bicycling.com/garmin-insider ... ure-racing

Or the Vittoria site. http://www.vittoria.com/tech/recom-tyre-pressure


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 6:52 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:18 am
Posts: 209
My previous wheel set was a zipp alu clincher with 23mm conti GP 4000s and now I'm using zipp carbon tubular with conti sprinter gato and I do not feel any diff between clincher and the new tub wheel. All my friends are excited about it and asking me any diff.

I was told that tub suppose to feel lighter and spin faster. My tub front wheel is 115psi and rear is 120 and I'm 56kg.

Psi wrong or the choice of tires for tub ?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 9:20 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:40 pm
Posts: 130
PSI, way too high. I am 64kg and run 90/95 or 95/100 depending on road conditions on 23mm tubs. Even that 'might' be too high


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 9:31 am 
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Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:14 am
Posts: 1199
I run VF extreme and carbon combos at 90/95-100 and I'm 85kgs on a good day..
I can out descend 99% of the worlds population.. It's the only thing in really good at on a bike. More pressure won't make me faster cause I won't have as much grip and the bike will bounce around.. Not ideal for hooking down tech descents at 70-90kph.
If it's wet I'd run 5-10psi less. Having fast wheels ( ceramics ) and a really good tuck make for better speed not over inflating tires till the fight the road..

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:59 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:40 pm
Posts: 130
My concern about going too low on pressure is the minimum recommendation on the tub, will that affect how it sits on the wheel and it's stability and possibly how much pressure there is on the bond with the glue?


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Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:59 am 


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