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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 6:16 pm 
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No, I probably didn't "have to" face the headtube, and I think I said this is the very first Colnago headtube I've faced since they switched from the external headsets, but the roughness of the bearing was definitely noticeable and most annoying to me. And over time, that would translate to premature wear. Plus, I wasn't really removing any actual frame material... it was just to remove the excess paint, particularly that ridge that had formed. I've faced bottom brackets before that had nothing more than excess uneven paint on them where the bottom brackets seemed trashed, but after facing they spun like new. This was no different. And also and maybe even more the reason I pulled it all apart is that I like to know how everything is built when they come out with a new frame, and this is the first one that I had the opportunity to really pull everything apart on, since it was my own. I kind of accept the "you break it, you own it" philosophy. But I'd much rather me do the facing than let that beauty out of my hands, potentially to never be seen again. And once I had everything back in and pressed and turned the bearing with my fingers... there was a big sigh of relief and joy, and all was right with the world again.
:beerchug:

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Colnago C60 - PR99
C59 Five Years Later
My Special Colnago EPQ
Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 9:30 am 
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Holy moly.... first time seeing this in picture. Congrats on the build. Speechless as PR99 is my favourite for any colnago frame.


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Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 9:30 am 


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:59 am 
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I have read now through all three of your threads and I can only echo what essentially everyone has already stated: beautiful bicycles, beautiful process, beautiful attention to detail, beautiful photography, and beautiful writing. Really a great set of threads.

One thing I will add is that I am also impressed with the cleanliness and organization of your work areas, whether indoors or outside. That is so nice to see, as of course a corollary to your sense of precision.

But we have all seen those "other" workbench shots ( :) ); these are just so refreshing.

:beerchug:

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"Gimondi è un eroe umano, che viene sconfitto ma che continua la sua corsa fino a tornare a vincere." - Enrico Ruggeri


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:43 pm 
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Ok, after a way longer hiatus from this thread than I thought I'd take, it's time to finally sit down and finish this thing off. Thanks to everyone so far for the great comments. I've enjoyed doing the thread but for sure it takes longer than actually building the bike. I'm able to ride again after way too long off the bike due to my crash last June, so looking forward to a great upcoming season this year. Oh, and @Cadence90... I had a good chuckle over your last post about how impressed you are with the cleanliness and organization of my work areas. Ha... if you only knew. I do try to keep things uncluttered for pictures, but the reality is quite different.

So... let me try to pick up where I left off. I guess I'll start with setting up the front derailleur.

The SR Derailleur on this bike is not the S2 version ("Secure Shifting System"), which has the support arm that acts to shore up a flexy braze-on tab or frame tube. I have the S2 version on my C59, even though I didn't specifically order it. I don't use the arm, as the Colnago seattube and derailleur brazeon are extremely solid so there is no need.

Here's the front derailleur as well as the SRM chain/catcher with built in magnet. Produced by K-Edge...
Image


With any of the new groups these days, getting the front derailleur perfectly aligned and set is one of the most critical steps to a properly functioning drive train. Campagnolo has a special tool that helps with alignment of the front derailleur to the chain rings. I don't use it. SRAM has a guideline etched into the cage. And Shimano recommends aligning the cage to the chainrings using the same method I like to use... by taking a larger (Extra Long 8mm Allen Wrench) and with the flat edge against the teeth of the largest sprocket, it should just barely graze the edge of the outer cage plate as you rotate it along it's length. I think this is even better than using the Campy tool, since you can actually feel it grazing ever so slightly for it's entire length and thus know it's perfectly aligned. To set the front derailleur to the position where it is far enough outboard to feel the "grazing" but held firmly in one spot, I start by tightening down the front derailleur, and then before attaching any cables etc, pull out the cage and screw in the LOWER limit set screw so that it holds it firmly there, just for while I'm adjusting the alignment. Once the alignment is complete, then I unscrew the lower limit set screw so that it can settle back to it's most inboard position. Also, I like to set the cage so that it is about 2.5mm above the tallest teeth on the chain ring. I measure this by taking a 2.5mm allen key and passing it between the teeth and the cage when holding the cage directly above the teeth. When I can barely pass a 2.5mm allen key through there, but not a 3mm, I know I'm there. I set the height first, to get it positioned vertically on the derailleur tab, then loosen it off just enough to be able to swivel it a bit as I adjust the alignment. Also, note the position of the crank when doing this... the tallest teeth on the chainring are when the arm is in the 3 o'clock position, so those are the teeth you want to be referencing when setting the height...
Image


Oh, and just to show an S2 Front Derailleur, which I think may be all they are shipping now... here it is... the only difference being the support arm (to the right, removed), which I don't use on the Colnagos...
Image

_________________
Colnago C60 - PR99
C59 Five Years Later
My Special Colnago EPQ
Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR


Last edited by Calnago on Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:18 pm 
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Ok... at some point before I install the chain... I sometimes (not always, if I'm feeling lazy) like to degrease it as completely as I can to remove the thick packing grease. I know this can be controversial to some, they might say oh... you must leave it on, or whatever. The truth is, it's thick, it's messy... it will take some riding to completely remove it so that your preferred lube can replace it properly. I'd rather skip all that and get it squeaky clean so I can use my preferred lube from the start. But the main reason I like to do it is that if I install and set up everything with a dry, non-lubed chain, then any little metal on metal rubs etc are amplified, whereas with a bunch of grease on the thing, those sounds can be masked a bit. I like to use those sounds to tell me when something is ever so slightly off and can make adjustments accordingly during the fine tuning phase.
The other thing that I know some people will notice is that I'm soaking it in Simple Green. I hear people cringing saying "Oh no! That will eat through the metal and make your chain brittle". That was something that came to light years ago in the aircraft industry or somewhere where residue could cause some corrosion in bolts etc when left a long time. Or something like that. Well, firstly... I'm not letting it sit for months in this bath. And secondly... I completely rinse the thing in lots of running water afterwards. No chain of mine has ever snapped. I use it to clean cogs in cassettes too. So here we go... cookin' the chain... (I have actually heated it before on the stove a bit thinking that would make things even cleaner and get even more of the initial grease off, but I only did that once... until it started smoking...lol...
Image

_________________
Colnago C60 - PR99
C59 Five Years Later
My Special Colnago EPQ
Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:48 pm 
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Uh... what next... Rear derailleur I guess...
Here's the part I was really looking forward to on this, my first, C60 build. I had heard, via internet threads etc., that people had been having some issues setting up their Campy stuff on Colnago C60's. The issue seemed to be one of being able to adjust things so that the upper pulley was within the 5-7mm distance to the teeth of the biggest cog on the cassette while on the small chainring up front. On my C59 or any other bike I have not had an issue dialing this spec in. What I have done in the past is to change the hole where the retention spring sits, because Colnago does in fact use every available dimension available to them but still be within the Campy spec for derailleur hangers. Since I was layed up physically all summer, I had lots of time to really analyze this and see for myself if the Colnago hanger is within the specs for Campagnolo.

First, here's the specification that Campagnolo wants the derailleur hangers to adhere to...
Image

After much fiddling, figuring and measuring, I was able to deduce to my satisfaction that the Colnago C60 derailleur hanger is indeed within spec. It is at the margins for sure, but they do this to allow for fairly easy wheels changes. And that is indeed the case with Colnagos versus some other frames I've seen where it can be a real pain just to remove a rear wheel. Anyway, here is what I came up with for my size 59 Traditional C60... and I am totally satisfied that the hanger/frame geometry is within Campagnolo's specs...
Image

But just for good measure, I did alter where the retention spring in the derailleur pulley cage assembly is set...
Instead of the default middle hole, I move the spring to the far left hole (I've circled in white bistro marker). This will allow for even more adjustment to get the upper pulley closer to the cassette if needed...
Image

_________________
Colnago C60 - PR99
C59 Five Years Later
My Special Colnago EPQ
Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:43 pm 
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Installing the chain... Given what I knew already... I wanted to test whether chain length affected how close the upper pulley could be adjusted to the cassette.
First step was to install the chain...
I made a little "tool" that I always use to make sure the chain length is good. It is nothing more than a cut length of spoke with the ends bent to act like hooks to hold the chain together... I mark the link I want to cut the chain at with a bistro marker, and use the campy chain tool for all breaking, assembly and peening at the end...
Image


But before I cut it to length, I wanted to check whether a shorter, or longer chain (but essentially both within spec for chain length) would make any difference as to how close the upper pulley could get to the cassette cogs. I found that the slightly longer setting was better in this regard, and it coincides with how I've always done things in the past, basically using the longest chain possible in order to give the most leeway in using all the range of cassettes and putting the least amount of stress on the derailleur, especially when it might be in the big/big combo. So here's how it looked with the best length, which is just a tad under or at the 10mm gap spec, but the next shortest length would have resulted in that gap being closer to a 20mm and that was too much. The next longer length would have caused it to rub on the lower pulley cage. So this was jussst right, said Goldilocks...
Image


And then just to show you what I was experimenting with, here's a pic of the chain on small chainring and biggest rear cog. While setting the chain at both shorter and longer lengths, I determined that longer was better than shorter when trying to get the upper pulley closer to the cogs. Keep in mind that the final adjustment to the H-screw or any others have not been made yet... this is all just playing with chain length at this point and experimenting a bit... and also that for this purpose I'm using an 11/23 cassette, which is the most difficult cassette (due to the smallish 23tooth largest cog) on which to achieve the desired gap between the upper pulley and the cogs teeth...
Image

_________________
Colnago C60 - PR99
C59 Five Years Later
My Special Colnago EPQ
Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:58 pm 
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Ok... break time... but I will finish this thread, complete with a bunch more finished bike pics...

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Colnago C60 - PR99
C59 Five Years Later
My Special Colnago EPQ
Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:14 pm 
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Ok... next up... pics of the install showing the distance from the largest sprocket to the upper pulley. I did this exercise for the following cassettes...(11/23, 12/25, 12/27, 11/29)....just to make sure that they all would work. The pics below just show the 11/23 cassette.

Below are progressive closeups up of the distance between the teeth of the largest sprocket on the cassette and the upper pulley of the derailleur when the chain is on the largest sprocket and the smallest chainring up front. In this case, the chain rings are 36/52 and the cassette is the smallest, and most likely to create difficulty with this adjustment, that Campy currently makes... 11/23.

Firstly, an overview of the setup (36/52 chainrings and 11/23 Cassette)...
Image

Next... a little closer, but same setup...
Image

And finally... super closeup so you can really get a feel for just how close the pulley is to the sprocket...
Image

The above pics just show the 11/23 cassette as it requires the derailleur to be closer than any of the other cassettes. In fact, when using the 11/29 cassette I have to back off the tension otherwise the upper pulley gets too close to the sprocket and causes binding and noise.

So, there you have it. I also set it up initially with no change in placement of the tension spring in the derailleur, and while it was probably acceptable, I could not get it quite as close as I show in the pictures above without the change, but it certainly would have been usable. In any case, it certainly wasn't anywhere close to an inch away from the sprocket... maybe more like 10mm rather than the 5-7mm the guidelines would like it to be. And even though the Campy docs state that for the 11/23 cassette, it may not be possible to get the gap smaller than 7mm, I was able to get it significantly smaller than that, as the pics indicate. Certainly no more than 5mm.

I think the big takeaway from this, for me at least, is that the derailleur hanger on the C60 is within Campagnolo's spec and that with proper install things work as they should.

_________________
Colnago C60 - PR99
C59 Five Years Later
My Special Colnago EPQ
Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:50 pm 
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Fabulous thread. Thanks for taking the time to document this.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:14 pm 
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Disclaimer: Bear with me here... this part starts to get into some minutiae that I'm sure will start to make eyes roll if you're not into this sort of thing. So feel free to skip to the final set of pics if you like (they will be up soon I hope). But I promised myself I'd make this thread as complete as possible so damnit, I must press on...

So, with chain installed, it's time to dial all the shifting in. Quick note on the SR Derailleur... with the new post 2015 rear derailleur, there is a new screw (call it the B-Screw) on the derailleur that can push the derailleur back a bit from the derailleur hanger tab. When first released there was no documentation on this screw at all, and people asked what it was for (I still don't know if there's any documentation). Anyway, since the new derailleurs have more of a "wrap" or "embrace" effect around the front of the cassette, I suppose some frames might actually need the derailleur to be brought rearward a bit and that's what this screw will do. However, on the Colnagos that I've built, and as I showed in the derailleur hanger diagram in a previous post, this is not an issue at all but rather the opposite, the issue is getting the derailleur forward enough. So, to date I have never had to use that screw on a Colnago build and I would recommend leaving it in it's factory supplied state, which is completely backed off if you're building a Colnago with it.

I'm not going to go into details on dialing in the rear derailleur as it's no different than it's always been. Just make sure the limit screws are set properly, the cable tension is adjusted with all slack remove, and you should be good save for maybe some very fine tuning at the end of everything.

The front derailleur on the other hand, is not at all like pre-2015 front derailleurs. If you adjust it like you did prior to 2015, you will most likely not get it dialed in very well, if at all, unless you get supremely lucky (ok, now do it again :lol: ). In it's lowest position (most inboard), it will take no more, and no less than 3 clicks to move the chain (from any position on the cassette) to the big ring from the small ring. If it takes less than 3 (from the lowest position), the tension is too high. If it doesn't get up to the big ring in three clicks, two things might be happening... 1) the cable tension may be too low, or 2) the outer limit screw may be too tight. While initially adjusting the front derailleur, leave the outer limit screw completely backed off, so that you could actually throw the chain to the outside if you moved the lever far enough providing there is enough cable tension. Final setting of the outer limit screw should be the very last step. I'm not going to go into all the details here that you can get from the instructions etc., but will say what I do, for my own bikes, but might not necessarily do for people's bikes that are going to have someone else work on them, including shop mechanics. Namely, that would be a choice between installing or not installing the inline cable adjuster.

I'll say that I really hate the inline adjusters messing up my front cabling. They are butt ugly, and they provide a point of entry however small for the elements (water, dust, dirt) to get in to your cable housing. The thing is, you need to be able to fine tune the tension when the chain is on the big ring and largest rear sprocket. So, in the absence of that inline adjuster, which looks to be like one of the best I've seen when compared to some of the others, I use a fourth hand tool to grab the cable from the front derailleur while it is on the big ring, loosen off the cable set bolt, use the fourth hand tool to get the derailleur very close to, but not touching, the chain when it is completely crossed (big/big), and then lock it down. It's probably difficult to visualize, so if you get that then good; if not... then stick in the inline adjuster and save yourself a whole lot of hassle. At this point, with the cable now set and locked down, you can adjust the outer limit screw and set it. Oh, for both the outer and lower limit screws, I put a small dab of Loctite 222 (purple, low strength) on the threads as these screws can turn quite easily on their own. This will keep them from vibrating loose over time. Campagnolo used to do this as a matter of course but it seems they've stopped. It only takes a second to do and will slightly "lock" your perfect adjustment in. Just don't use so much as to gunk things up.

Run through all the gears etc., making sure it shifts into any combination from any combination... no combination should be off limits, and all combinations, including cross chained combos should be accessible and noise free. One very slight exception to this might be a tiny rub of the chain on a lift pin of the inside of the big ring when in the extreme crossed position of small/small. I can hear it slightly, but once the chain has settled in with lube on it has been completely quite. As an aside, I like to use Duo-Monde Tech Lite since it is very water resistant, and coats the drive train with almost a waxy type of feel, yet it is not a "wax". It can tend to get messy if you never maintain it, but all I ever use is water with a little dish soap in a Park Tool cleaner, perhaps a brush and a rag and fresh water rinse to get sandy grit off and I'm good to go. But back to the adjustment...

When you're on the big ring, there is no "Trim", unlike pre 2015 front derailleurs. Once you're on the big ring, if it is adjusted correctly you should be able to access ANY of the rear cogs cleanly, without the chain rubbing on the front derailleur. When you want to drop it down to the small ring, just use one full motion to the STOP (this stop is new as of 2015). There will be two clicks, the first one you just pass right through as it does nothing on the way from the big to the small, and the second click will be when it hits the stop (there is a physical metal bar in the left front shifter that you can see if you look inside from the bottom). This position is a temporary stop and is intended to help prevent a chain drop to the inside. Unlike pre 2015 stuff, where you could slam the front derailleur through all its clicks to it's lowest position in one fell swoop, the new derailleur will take two motions by design. So, the first motion gets you from the large to the small ring, and you will be able to access all but the two or three largest cogs without rub, then the second motion will move it to it's lowest point where you will be able to access the largest cogs noise free. It works very well and I'm not sure a chain catcher is even necessary with this new design, but for insurance purposes I'd still use one and in my case I use it for insurance and also for the SRM magnet feature.

Ok... I'm going to leave that dissertation on Campy setup as is. If some of it helped, great. If you find it hard to understand or need clarification, say so... sometimes when you've done it you forget how much head scratching you went through when you first did it yourself. On my first installation of the new derailleur, I spent hours on it playing around with different tensions and figuring out how to adjust it without the inline tension adjuster. I just wanted to know and understand how it all worked. I think I went through two front derailleur cables as I loosened and tightened, loosened and tightened, over and over again till I "got it" and really understood how the thing was designed and intended to work.

_________________
Colnago C60 - PR99
C59 Five Years Later
My Special Colnago EPQ
Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:18 am 
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Bravo, Great thread.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:23 am 
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Ok... almost there... let's adjust the brakes... tape it up, and call it good.

Brakes, Brakes, Brakes... what can I say. I like rim brakes on high end road bikes, and probably always will. They're simple, clean, lightweight and I think quite sexy looking and most of all, perfectly functional. Modulation comes from good quality calipers, perfect setup, straight true rims, and smooth running levers and friction free brake housing runs. All of which are easily achievable.

I'm running Boras with the red Campagnolo brake pads for carbon rims. I have found by trial and error that 0.75mm of toe-in is about perfect for me. When I say trial and error, I mean I used a cutup Chris King Teflon headset shim which happens to be exactly 0.25mm thick, and step by step adjusted toe-in at 0.25mm increments and did a test ride between each increment until nothing but a clean soft brake sound could be heard, even under hard braking. No screeching, squealing or grabbing. I did this on my C59 long ago, and did it on a cold foggy morning, so as to simulate the worst case conditions for potential brake squeal, and methodically adjusted the brakepad/rim interface first flush, then at 0.25mm increments until I settled on 0.75mm as my ideal toe-in for my weight etc.

When adjusting, I set the brake shoes kind of loose, then use a piece of rubber tubing to provide just enough pull to hold the pads flat against the rim with a piece of cut up credit card of 0.75mm thickness at the rear of the pad...
Image

A cut up piece of 0.75mm credit card serves as my spacer to adjust toe-in for my weight....
Image

Get it all locked down, then use the fine adjustment screw on the side the brake caliper to microadjust the distance between the rim and the pads so that it is equidistant on each side. The other little screw on the other side of the brake caliper is for adjusting the spring tension of the caliper. I never touch that, always seems fine.

_________________
Colnago C60 - PR99
C59 Five Years Later
My Special Colnago EPQ
Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR


Last edited by Calnago on Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:52 am 
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Taping... I like gel underneath a tight wrap of bar tape. I've normally used the Fizik Gel pads, but wanted to try this Bontrager stuff. It's gooey, it's flexy, it's bouncy... all things that if tightly wrapped I thought might provide a nice underlayer to the bar tape I was using which really doesn't have any cushion at all. Anyway, I have mixed feelings about it, simply because while it does the job it would move a little too easily while I was trying to get a nice tight wrap on it with the bar tape. I think I'll try it again at least once now that I know how it reacts to wrapping bar tape over top as I think I'd be able to do a better job next time. Here's how it looks hanging all gelatin like on the bars, like a big wrap of soft yummy Haribo Gummy Bears, yum...
Image

Oh, since this was such a special build I was going to try something I've never done before. I was going to try and finish off the tape job by doing a whipfinish of Italian colored thread instead of using electrical tape, then once done coat it with a clear sealant of sorts to protect it from the elements. By "whip finish" I mean a kind of finishing technique that I learned when tying fishing flies where the "head" of the fly is a bunch of thread wraps pulled over top of the final tightening thread then coated with shellac or nail polish or something to keep everything from unravelling. But despite my intentions it was late and the thick tape made things difficult and I just wanted to get it done, so electrical tape was yet again the final wrap. Thought it was getting a little too cutsie maybe as well. But I did take a picture of my earlier "practice" session to see if it would work somehow before applying the bar tape etc...
Image

Mission Aborted!

_________________
Colnago C60 - PR99
C59 Five Years Later
My Special Colnago EPQ
Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:08 am 
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Ok... finally the swimsuit photos in no particular order, gratuitously and shamelessly presented for your amusement...

Upon early arrival...
Image


During maiden voyage...
Image


Image


Delogo'd Specialized Romin Pro, before they went and cut off the nose by a centimeter :cry: ...
Image

Image


Back of the Campagnolo Seatpost Collar... love this "wraparound" design... provides good even distribution of force...
Image


The angle of entry of the rear brake housing into the top tube keeps the cable housing far and away from the frame itself. In fact, nowhere on the entire bicycle does a cable housing touch the frame other than it's entry points...
Image


Even when the handlebars are turned at an extreme angle, neither brake or derailleur cables touch the headtube up front...
Image

To be continued... just want to break up the picture show in case I get timed out of this post before I finish...

_________________
Colnago C60 - PR99
C59 Five Years Later
My Special Colnago EPQ
Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR


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Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:08 am 


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