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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:25 am 
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I prefer your fit on this bike with the spacers over the c59. The frame has more room to breathe aesthetically, more seatpost.

I've got a 14cm rule with 31.6 posts, silly maybe but don't like less than that out the frame to the rails...


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Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:25 am 


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:35 pm 
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@Superdomestique: I can appreciate your "rule" of wanting 14cm of seat tube showing, but that's strictly an acquired taste and has zero affect on fit as you know. That said, I'd agree that 14cm is a nice rule of thumb on a frame my size for sure, albeit completely subjective. That's pretty much what it is shown currently. But if you measure from where the bottom of the seat collar clamp, basically where the white paint stops, then it's ~15cm. Also depends on choice of saddle, and its "stack height" and profile (is it a dipped saddle shape or more flat, etc). And of course, what one deems personally acceptable or not, aesthetically speaking.

The issue I potentially had with the 59cm frame, versus my 61, was primarily about the reach difference (fit wise) versus my setup on the C59. The difference in handling is still very much an exploratory process and I'm looking forward to getting my C59 back to compare the handling differences, if any, more critically to see if I can tell what those small differences might be. The top tube is 9mm shorter on the C60, but they share the same seat tube angle. I played around a lot with stuff on my C59 and other bikes, and much preferred the fit I got with a 130mm stem over a 120mm stem. So, the 59cm frame would kind of put me back at that ealier fit, all else being equal. I decided to try it out for a while anyway, possibly even playing with my weight balance on the whole bike by moving the saddle a titch back and splitting the difference, just to experiment a bit. In the end, I got a 140mm stem to try out, which put my fit back to my identical position on my C59 and all is right with the world. It is a Team Sky stem (the only one I could find in a 140mm length), and I actually liked the "PRO" graphcis on the side, but could never live with the blue stripe on top, so I stripped that...

Image


In the end, I suppose it's a coin toss. On this bike (C60), I have more spacers under the stem and more seatpost showing versus my C59. On my C59, I have just one 3mm alloy spacer, and less seatpost. However, due to the fact that the seatpost and frame are both essentially the same carbon color, the seatpost on the C59 actually looks longer simply because your eye calculates from the color change of frame to seatpost, or if the color is the same, from the top tube, if that makes sense. If I had to choose one over the other, strictly on the basis of overall aesthetics (forget the paint scheme for a moment), I'd personally choose the C59. No... wait, the C60. No, uh... Lol.

And here's the current setup... 140mm stem and fit feels like an old friend again.
Also, spacer stack now consists of 20mm total above the top cover (17mm carbon, 3mm alloy red "bit o' bling")...

Image

Image

_________________
Colnago C60 - PR99
C59 Five Years Later
My Special Colnago EPQ
Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR


Last edited by Calnago on Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:59 pm 
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Mr.Gib wrote:
Cal, I admire your patience on the bar/shifter position issue. I thought you explained it perfectly well first time around. I think the appearance if perfectly fine - this from someone who takes the opposite approach to lever positioning. I cannot abide a ramp down to my shifters, and I cannot even tolerate shifter hoods that are dead level (parallel with the ground). I need the hoods tilted up slightly to eliminate some angle from my wrists and distribute pressure more evenly over my palm. I like my hoods to "oppose" the direction of force from my body somewhat. Takes some burden off my core. Like you say - to each his own.

And speaking of Campy front derailleurs, do I really need a chain catcher?

Yes, bar/shifter positioning is really as much a personal preference as saddle choice. No right or wrong. For instance, Shimano levers lend themselves much more readily to a position like you seem to prefer from your description. I would say Conatador prefers that too to an extent.

Re the chain catcher issue... that's a very good question as it relates to the newer (2015+) Campagnolo front derailleur. Truth is, I don't know. Ever since I started using one I've never had a single chain drop. But the way the new front derailleur works, I'm not sure a chain catcher is even needed. I have one because of the very clean integrated magnet for the SRM powermeter, and I've gotten used to riding with one, and it's good insurance I guess. You never know when something freaky can happen. Just the other day I went riding with a friend and when I got to our meeting place, there she was with her chain all jammed up on the inside and it had actually gotten past the chain catcher. Well, turns out that whoever installed it didn't get it close enough to the chain and the gap was big enough that whatever she did, it managed to squeeze itself through and then create a bit of an issue getting it back on. So, if you do go with a chain catcher, and yes, I'd recommend one (why not), then make sure it's adjusted as close as possible to your chain without actually rubbing when it's in the small/small combo.

To spend just a second on one of the differences between the newer front derailleurs and the pre 2015 stuff... here's a pic of the left shifter from the inside that I'm about to install on a bike. Note the little metal bar in the ratchet mechanism. That's the stop that will prevent a complete full throw of the derailleur from the big to the small ring in one fell swoop. That stop is solely intended to help minimize a potential chain drop in those situations. There will be one more click at your disposal which will allow the derailleur to move to it's most inboard position and eliminate any potential rubbing on the 3 or so largest rear cogs.

Image

_________________
Colnago C60 - PR99
C59 Five Years Later
My Special Colnago EPQ
Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:51 pm 
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Mr.Gib wrote:
...A question for you Cal, you show rear tire clearance. Can we also see front tire clearance? (Maybe I missed it earlier in the thread). That rear clearance does look good but while a 27 mm may fit theoretically, I don't think it could be used in practice based on the gap I am seeing. I think you'd have all kinds of crap scraping the frame as soon as you were on anything but a clean road. And for the clincher crowd I think the limit would be 25 mm tires, 23 mm for some brands, on any rims with a 17 mm or wider internal width.


Ah, the clearance issue... Here's a pic of the front with a 25mm Veloflex Arrenberg tubular mounted on a Campagnolo Bora wheel (2015, and yes it makes a difference over the pre 2014 Boras)...

Image

My rule for clearance with no "chatter" from road debris is 2mm of clearance measured with a 2mm Allen wrench waved lengthwise like a wand over the tire and between the fork or the rear brake bridge. I've really tested this out as with my C59 and my EPQ which share the same fork, a 25mm Arrenberg, for example, mounted on the older Boras would barely have enough clearance, and road debris (not the tire itself), would occasionally get thrown through the fork crown and rear stays causing a lot of annoying "chatter". I fully expect that the underside of a fork crown cannot be expected to stay pristine forever, but the chatter really annoyed me. With the 2015 Boras, the more relaxed radius of the rim bed designed around 25mm tires actually allows the same tire to sit a little lower, only 1mm mind you, but that's all the difference I needed to ride chatter free. I am very happy about this. While the C60 has marginally more clearance that the C59 I'll use my C59 fork to show some clearance gaps without any brakes installed, which conceivable could have an effect as well, depending on the caliper being used...

Frist up... Pre 2015 Bora with a Veloflex 24mm Roubaix tubular (now discontinued)... no clearance issues whatsoever...
Image



Compared to a 25mm Veloflex Arrenberg tubular on a new Bora rim... 2-2.5mm of clearance, no issues still, but this is the minimum clearance I have tested that runs "chatter free"...
Image


How do I measure... with Allan wrenches waved like a wand. A 2mm wrench can be waved freely around the entire profile of the tire between the tire and the fork crown with the wrench sticking through the entire way front to back...
Image


And now the same wheel/tire but using a 2.5mm Allen wrench... it does not move "freely"... it will bind slightly between the tire and fork crown... hence clearance of 2-2.5mm...
Image


And here is the exact same tire (Veloflex Arrenberg 25mm tubular) mounted on a pre 2015 Bora rim. It sits higher simply because of the narrower rim bed radius which kind of wants to push up the tubular a little bit due to the slight mismatch in radial profile... as a result there is only 1-1.5mm of clearance as measured the same way as I just showed previously. Looking back at these pics it may be hard to see the difference but there is. The exact same camera angle can be hard to duplicate. But the differences were there, and measured. What a difference a millimeter can make...
Image

So there you have it, clearances for a C59 fork (the latest runs of C59's shared the early C60 fork design and had more clearance than this one, which is part of one of the first C59's). But they never altered the rear stays on those runs.

The C60 has more clearance on both ends of the bike than the C59's, but it's still not huge by some standards. It's a road bike, pure and simple. I'm a 200+ pounder and would not ride bigger than 24-25mm tires on these bikes. I really do think the sweet spot is pretty much exactly like the new Boras provide, slightly wider rim width of 24.2mm with a rim bed radius designed around a 25mm tubular. The rim bed "radius" is obviously irrelevant for clincher tires, which have their own set of sizing "issues" and are very dependent on the rim width being used, unlike tubulars.

_________________
Colnago C60 - PR99
C59 Five Years Later
My Special Colnago EPQ
Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR


Last edited by Calnago on Sun May 21, 2017 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:53 am 
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Location: eh?
Thanks for that info - and yeah, I did chase you around this website a bit re the chain-catcher. :D I think I will run without one.

I am digging this new stop on the front shifter. As a newcomer to Campy I am quite impressed with various design elements even though the ergonomics in terms of how you have to manipulate your hand to shift are inferior to either Shimano or Sram.
:frightened:
I have tilted the hoods up a bit and in makes a huge difference. Reach to the levers on the drops gets long but no problem with my long fingers - little guys would have a problem though. I looked at photos of a bunch of Campy equipped pro bikes and a lot of guys have the levers up quite a bit.

Colnago is interesting on tire clearance. If it was my company, I would be asking what would be lost by adding 1 mm to both ends on the C60. As simple as building with slightly different dropouts. For older Colnago models perhaps you could argue that the trend to wider rims and bigger tires was just getting going. But for the C60 I think Colnago is a bit behind. I am with you in that I would never run larger than a 25 mm tubular on that bike. And in that sense it is a non-issue (although we are still dealing with minimum clearance). But a 25 mm clincher on a wide rim will be a problem depending on tire choice. As I have wondered before - how much clearance will there be on Colnago's next flagship model? If we see more than my criticism would seem justified. If it remains the same then Colnago obviously has some strong feelings about what is appropriate for these bike and I happily defer.

As a side note, is there such a thing as an Extreme Power with extra clearance designed for the pros for Paris Roubaix? I have a vague recollection of seeing such a creature for sale. That would be an interesting bike to own.

_________________
wheelsONfire wrote:
When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:36 am 
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I don't know. I happen to think there's a whole lot of marketing going on in the industry, and it's not good enough for manufacturers to improve on similar design. It seems they all want to have something either completely different from anyone else and then claim theirs is the best etc. I'm not buying the rim designs of huge 19mm internal widths etc., at least not for the road. If I need to run such big tires, I should be off road and probably on a mountain bike. But that's just my opinion. Will be interesting to see how things play out in the years to come.

As for the Extreme Power specifically made for the pros and even more specifically, for Paris Roubaix, that is not at all uncommon for many brands. In fact, I'm not sure if it's the same one, but I think I might know of the specific Roubaix frame you're talking about, and know who now owns it. It's built stronger, whether that be in the carbon, resins, layup or whatever... I'm not sure of the specifics. It also has bigger logos than normal... as if Colnago logos aren't visible enough already :).

And as for getting used to the Campy levers... it's certainly true that some bars fit certain groups' levers better than others, and vice versa. And then throw different personal preferences as to how they are sett up into the mix and it becomes a melting pot of choices and combinations. I once went to the Alps and used an Ultegra triple a long time ago, after using Campagnolo for so long. I thought the shifting would take some getting used to, and it did, but after awhile it became just as intuitive to me as I thought Campagnolo was. I never got used to the shift lever and brake lever being one and the same however. I suppose we quickly adapt to whatever we have. Good luck with your adaptation period... I don't feel Campy is inferior at all in the ergonomics of how it all works, but it's what I'm used to. Ha... it's good we have choices.

_________________
Colnago C60 - PR99
C59 Five Years Later
My Special Colnago EPQ
Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:39 am 
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Location: eh?
My comment about inferior ergonomics relates specifically to two things:

1. The movement of the hand required to depress the thumb button. From the hoods, the palm must come off the hood slightly or be positioned further back in the first place putting the brake lever out of reach. With the palm unsupported fine motor control of the thumb is impaired. And the reach to the thumb button from the drops is a bit of a funky move.

2. The positioning of the shift lever in line with the bar drops as opposed to flaring outboard as the other brands do. This requires the fingers that perform the shift to sweep further inboard to effect a shift, whether from the hoods or drops. The muscles of the fingers are required to work in a less efficient range, smaller hands may even require some wrist involvement.

On the other hand, I think the positioning (and shape) of the levers make for the very best braking from the hoods. Really, really like the feel of this.

As with other switches in groupsets that I have made, with the hoods set to my preferred position, I'm not finding there is any period of adjustment. Everything is quite comfortable and performs as I would expect. Although I admit I reached for the thumb button on my Sram equipped Trek Boone this morning, so maybe I'm used to Campy and the others feel weird.:D

BTW that stem is nice. Using Pro stems on my other bikes.

_________________
wheelsONfire wrote:
When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:37 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2016 1:33 am
Posts: 55
Nice bike! perfect! :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:18 pm 
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Posts: 50
Nice bike, great perfection in your build!!!

Enjoy the bike, mine is heading towards 20,000 miles, with a lot of crits, some crashes, road races, pot-holes and even some gravel with a bit of cross thrown in. Since I rebuilt the BB, not a thing goes wrong, just tires and chains.

Image


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:08 pm 
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Thanks... however, if I was doing crits... this is definitely not the bike I'd be using. Gravel roads, sure. Terrible muddy rainy wet weather, sure. But crits, where the potential to completely wreck both body and bike is quite high... I could use other bikes for that. :)

_________________
Colnago C60 - PR99
C59 Five Years Later
My Special Colnago EPQ
Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:21 pm 
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Posts: 570
Simple use of the bottle-cage bolts would be cufflinks. Give them a good clean and find a matching nut.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:31 pm 
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Cufflinks?... ha... I'm not much of a cufflink kinda guy, but thanks. I've already got the special use for them underway thanks. In case people just tuning in are wondering what the heck he's talking about... the little jewels of waterbottle cage bolts that come with the C60 were not suitable for the cages I'm using, so instead I'm going to try to turn them into jewelry for someone special (earlier pic repeated below). And no, unlike for some others on this forum (@Godzuki26), she does not read anything in WeightWeenies and laughs at the thought. So it will still be a secret.
Image

_________________
Colnago C60 - PR99
C59 Five Years Later
My Special Colnago EPQ
Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:28 pm 
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Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Calnago wrote:
Cufflinks?... ha... I'm not much of a cufflink kinda guy, but thanks. I've already got the special use for them underway thanks. In case people just tuning in are wondering what the heck he's talking about... the little jewels of waterbottle cage bolts that come with the C60 were not suitable for the cages I'm using, so instead I'm going to try to turn them into jewelry for someone special (earlier pic repeated below). And no, unlike for some others on this forum (@Godzuki26), she does not read anything in WeightWeenies and laughs at the thought. So it will still be a secret.
Image


Nice one, Calnago!

Can you post a picture or 2 of these "jewellery" once it's made, with weight please of course :mrgreen:

She will no doubt love them on her ears ........ :thumbup:

Cheers

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:58 pm 
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Ok... they will form the basis for a pair of earrings. I'm sure they'll be the cause of an infection or something. Then I'll be able to start a thread like @Godzuki26. Ha. She WILL love them and she WILL wear them. Ha.

_________________
Colnago C60 - PR99
C59 Five Years Later
My Special Colnago EPQ
Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR


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Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:58 pm 


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:22 am 
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Calnago wrote:
Thanks... however, if I was doing crits... this is definitely not the bike I'd be using. Gravel roads, sure. Terrible muddy rainy wet weather, sure. But crits, where the potential to completely wreck both body and bike is quite high... I could use other bikes for that. :)


Over here in the US the main racing scene is Crits. The bad crashes here are mostly road races with our yellow line rule and everyone trying to stay in the front.

Build another C60 and put a few scratches on it, then ride it like you stole it. :wink:

Those water cage allen screws, only Ernesto would be that perfect!


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