Colnago C59 GDSL first build up and ride

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AJS914
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Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

I'd have to double check the saddle height. That number was off the top of my head. I'm going for a ride at lunch so I'll double check the figures.

I have experimented recently with a more forward saddle position on my Parlee and it immediately resulted in sore wrists which tells me too much weight was on my hands. I've been using the Steven Hogg method lately:

https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bi ... oad-bikes/

Even though people now say that KOPS is arbitrary and irrelevant, my setback ends up basically right at KOPS. So, it's not like I have an extreme setback compared to traditional methods.

As for saddle setback... it is the distance from a vertical line through the center of your bottom bracket to the tip of your saddle.


I've always wondered about using that measurement. Isn't that only good for one saddle. A different saddle could have a shorter or longer nose and you could easily be off by a centimeter or two.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

If you raised your saddle while simultaneously moving it forward, you can still have KOPS. When adjusting a saddle, it's rarely one or the other that has to be adjusted. And don't neglect the angle either.

All saddle measurements I make are only relevant for that particular saddle. Some saddles have a big dip in the middle. Some saddles are almost completely flat. The same person could have a centimeter difference in saddle height depending on the saddle being used. I always put a straight edge (piece of a cutting board or something) across the top of the saddle and measure to the bottom of that straight edge to be consistent (for that saddle). Even then, some frames may not have a seat tube that runs from center of bottom bracket in line with the seatpost, so what angle from the bottom bracket do you follow. In your case however, with the C59, it does have a seat tube that originates from the BB center, so you can follow up the line of the seat tube to the bottom of that straight edge to be consistent. If you change to a radically different saddle, the measurement should be done again. As long as you're thinking about these differences as you make your adjustments, that's the main thing. And don't follow any one "method" as gospel when it comes to fitting. Get in the ball park firstly, but don't be afraid to experiment a bit to find the perfect position for you, on that bike.

Re setback, the relatively low saddle height and the fact that you have yours jammed all the way back in the rails is kind of a red flag to me, especially given your height etc. Unless there is something very different about your body... not sure what's going on there.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

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AJS914
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Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

I'm not really changing my setup - just transferring it from the Parlee to the Colnago. I don't see any red flags. I debated on whether to get a 52S or 54S for a while and everything I read said that if you were between sizes then go for the smaller size with a Colnago. I plugged all the numbers into a stack/reach spreadsheet and the 52S fit fine with a few spacers under the stem. The 54S has the same reach as the 52S so the stem would be the same and the stack is only 1cm different. The 52S has a 73.57deg seat tube so I'd have to push the seat back more to achieve the same fit. If Colnago had made a 53S then that might have been spot on perfect.

I double checked my saddle height and from the BB to the top of the saddle, it's 74.8cm. From the pedal axle to the top of the saddle it's 92.3cm. If the frame was too small I'd have a lot more seatpost showing and probably more spacers under the stem but I don't. I think the bike looks well balanced.

The bike feels incredible. I think it's the best fit of all my bikes now. I got a proper ride in and I'm tired. This bike just makes one want to pedal harder. I rode up the Oakland-SF Bay bridge at lunch today:

Image
Last edited by AJS914 on Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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mrgray
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by mrgray

it is great to hear that you like the bike and interesting to hear your comparative comments on it. i really liked riding the C59, so much that i bought a C60 (that makes sense sort of). i sometimes wonder if i wouldn't be better off back on the C59 because it was perhaps a little less stiff than the C60.

for what it is worth (anecdata) i am about one cm shorter than you and ride a 52s with exactly the same saddle height (approximately i suppose because as calnago says saddles vary). i on other hand do not have saddle all the way back and have a shorter stem with 85 mm reach bars (110 mm). this is a c60 but same geo as i understand it.

recently had a bike fit and everything was very good.

as my back improves i will probably go to a longer stem though.

its a good fit for me so i can imagine it would be in ball park for you and i agree it is nicer to have a smaller bike rather than a bigger one.

p.s. i didn't know steve hogg who is local to me was so regarded. also i thought KOPS was still a good concept according to many. certainly work for me i think.
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AJS914
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by AJS914

Thanks.

Mrgray, Steve Hogg has been a revelation for me. He does seem highly regarded as well as controversial. Reading his blog I sorted out some fit issues that had nagged me for decades. (I'm 49 and have been riding a road bike since I was 13 years old. I also raced for 10 years so I have a pretty good idea of how I fit on a bike and what is comfortable for me.) I often used to feel like I was sitting crooked on a bike, like sliding to one side. I'd usually feel it at the beginning of the ride and then I'd forget about it after I was warmed up. Lowering my saddle a bit cured that. Now I can feel when my saddle is too high and I'm sliding over to one side to compensate.

I just read an article by Keith Bontrager called "The Myth of KOPS". I found it pretty interesting. It seems to align with Hogg's philosophy.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/kops.html

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soracabana
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by soracabana

Very nice!

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irongatsby
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by irongatsby

Nice C59. This is one of the best colorways in my opinion; understated and subdued with clean graphics. The only thing I would point out is that the gold chain doesn't seem like the best fit here. It's interesting to hear that the C59 is so comfortable. Although my EP is an older bike, I find it to be very stiff and a bit harsh.

AJS914
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by AJS914

It's amazing how a centimeter here or a few millimeters there makes such a difference in fit.

I swapped bars and fitted a longer stem and don't like it as much. The Zipp Vuka Sprint bars (87.5mm reach) were replaced by Reynolds Anatomic Pro bars (84mm reach). I installed a 13cm 3T ARX Team Stealth. I like the look of the stem but I didn't realize it was a 6 degree stem. The previous 8 degree Deda stem looks better to my eye as it matches the slope of the top tube better.

I'm not enjoying the extra centimeter of reach. It feels good on the tops of the bars but I can't ride comfortably on the hoods. The original plan was to fit some 3T Ergonova Pro bars (80mm reach) with the 13cm stem but they haven't arrived yet so I went with the Reynolds bars I already had. I also had the hoods higher on the Zipp bars and could ride comfortably on them but I didn't like how high they were for my standing/climbing position.

I think the best solution may be to just go back to the 12cm stem and call it a day. Currently with 13cm stem.
Last edited by AJS914 on Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

AJS914 wrote:It's amazing how a centimeter here or a few millimeters there makes such a difference in fit.

Understatement of the day. But looking good. This is also one of my favorite color schemes of the C59.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

AJS914
Posts: 5397
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

I rode the bike again today with the 13cm stem and it felt a lot more comfortable. Sometimes it feels like it's the princess and the pea. You move something a few mm and it feels like a big change. I want to rotate the bars up a bit which will bring the hoods up a bit more. That may work with the 13. Or just go with the 12cm stem. Or wait for the 3T bars and see how they work out... Getting close to having some bar tape on the bike. :-)

This is also one of my favorite color schemes of the C59.


It has really grown on me and I can say that I'm now loving it.

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mrgray
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by mrgray

i rode my C59 a couple of days ago and I just love it. so much so that i have taken the PM off the C60 and put it on the C59 for the forseeable future. Something about the frame, bit more comfortable than C60. but maybe main difference is the Presa Bar on the C59 with a reach of 77 mm versus the Schmolke on the C60 with a reach of 95 mm. I seem to much prefer the former.

So i agree re subtleties.
Bobo S&S Steel Bike - 7.5 kg
Oltre XR2- 6.6 kg
Look 585 - 6.8 kg
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AJS914
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Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

I see you posted your C60 for sale even!

The template of my idea of fit was born in the late 70s/80s. Even in the 90s when I raced the fit was the same. Look how far stretched out Hinault is:

hinault lemond.jpg


I've been trying to model my new fit based pros like Sagan. His arms are much more vertical.

TOC_Sagan_sm.jpg


I also want to be able to ride comfortably on the hoods but I can't do that with my old style reach. I also don't want to run my shifters Nibali-style (rotated up on the bars). I also have a set of Zipp bars with a 70mm reach. I could probably use those with the 13 stem and get it perfect. Or, use the 12 stem with the current 84mm Reynolds bars.

FitzroyBoy
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Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:23 am

by FitzroyBoy

I'm waiting on delivery of a C59 frame and can't wait to get what by all reports is one of the most sublime frames money can buy.

A couple of questions on the build up.

1) Bottom bracket. I have a "normal" near new english threaded Dura Ace 9000 bottom bracket in the bike this replaces (a BMC SLC01) so I wanna use that one. That's the right one for this frame also right?
2) Seatpost - do I need carbon assembly paste in there? I needed to put it into the BMC to get rid of an annoying little creak. I don't have any paste and would just as soon not buy a whole tube unnecessarily. I see some comments about the post fitting very tightly into the frame so I'm guessing I won't need it. Yeah I know the obvious answer is "well just wait and see if you need it" but thought I'd ask what others have found so I can buy some paste if I need it and complete the build in one go.
3) Steerer - it appears from some videos I've seen that the steerer will need to be cut off flush with the top of the stem as opposed to slightly shorter to accomodate the top cap. Is that right? Again - duh - just work it out when you're building it but thought I may as well ask. :-)
4) I saw a couple of comments about folks needing to align the rear derailleur hanger. What's the right way to do that and how many have found they need to do that out of the box?

Any other assembly tips welcome.

Can't wait to take delivery of this thing - I've been wanting an Italian frame for years!

cheers John

AJS914
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Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

I got in another ride today. I'm more and more comfortable on the 13cm stem. I rotated the bars up slightly which pushed the levers up a few mm - a bit more comfortable.

John, congratulations on your incoming C59. I'm in heaven with this frame. I can't imagine wanting anything else right now. Because of some road work I've had to ride on some gravel to get my ride in. I can't believe how comfortable the C59 is even on gravel (with narrow Eurus rims and 23mm tires).

BB - I don't know Shimano very well as I'm a Campy guy but the C59 takes a standard English threaded bottom bracket. It sounds like that is what you have.

Seatpost - I felt that I needed the assembly paste the lubricate the post enough so I could get it far enough down. Mine was a very tight fit.

Steerer - My steerer is cut slightly below the top of the stem (actually I have a small spacer on the very top so it's above the stem and below the top rim of the spacer). My C59 has a standard integrated headset so the steerer needs to be below the top of the stem (or top spacer) so you can tighten the top cap and set the pre-load on the headset bearings.

Rear derailleur hanger alignment - You need the tool to do the job properly. If your frame is factory fresh, then maybe you can just assemble it and it will be perfect? Since switching to 11 speed I find that I have to pay a lot more attention to the rear derailleur hanger. I had a bike that shifted perfectly with 10 speed but after upgrading to 11 speed shifted poorly. It turned out that the hanger really needs to be spot-on for 11 speed. 10 speed had a lot more wiggle room. ((edit 10/2017): I suspect that all my issue with 11 speed have to do with cable drag and sharp bends inside of internally routed cables in the bars. I eventually redid all my cables and was painstakingly careful with the bends and cable cuts and now have perfect shifting. )

I don't have the proper tool but I have a home-brew method. I take off the derailleur and then screw in an old wheel (axel into hanger). Then I use a tape measure and measure rim to rim. It should be the same all the way around. If not, I give the hanger a little tweak with the wheel that is screwed in to it.
Last edited by AJS914 on Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

FitzroyBoy
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Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:23 am

by FitzroyBoy

AJS914 wrote:I got in another ride today. I'm more and more comfortable on the 13cm stem. I rotated the bars up slightly which pushed the levers up a few mm - a bit more comfortable.

John, congratulations on your incoming C59. I'm in heaven with this frame. I can't imagine wanting anything else right now. Because of some road work I've had to ride on some gravel to get my ride in. I can't believe how comfortable the C59 is even on gravel (with narrow Eurus rims and 23mm tires).

BB - I don't know Shimano very well as I'm a Campy guy but the C59 takes a standard English threaded bottom bracket. It sounds like that is what you have.

Seatpost - I felt that I needed the assembly paste the lubricate the post enough so I could get it far enough down. Mine was a very tight fit.

Steerer - My steerer is cut slightly below the top of the stem (actually I have a small spacer on the very top so it's above the stem and below the top rim of the spacer). My C59 has a standard integrated headset so the steerer needs to be below the top of the stem (or top spacer) so you can tighten the top cap and set the pre-load on the headset bearings.

Rear derailleur hanger alignment - You need the tool to do the job properly. If your frame is factory fresh, then maybe you can just assemble it and it will be perfect? Since switching to 11 speed I find that I have to pay a lot more attention to the rear derailleur hanger. I had a bike that shifted perfectly with 10 speed but after upgrading to 11 speed shifted poorly. It turned out that the hanger really needs to be spot-on for 11 speed. 10 speed had a lot more wiggle room.

I don't have the proper tool but I have a home-brew method. I take off the derailleur and then screw in an old wheel (axel into hanger). Then I use a tape measure and measure rim to rim. It should be the same all the way around. If not, I give the hanger a little tweak with the wheel that is screwed in to it.



Thanks for the reply - very helpful. Re the derailleur hanger - hopefully I'll be lucky. When I went from 10 speed to 11 speed on the BMC it shifted perfectly from the get go. I have a freidnly LBS nearby and if it's not ok I'll just take it in for a final tune by him.

I'll post a photo when I have it built up fwiw.

by Weenie


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