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 Post subject: Re: Moots Disc Road
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:14 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:08 pm
Posts: 367
The Barfly 2.0 really makes the junction box neat. Best mount out there IMHO.

I have had the pleasure of a few weeks and a few miles on the bike now, and I am even more convinced that this is the future of road bikes.

The lower rotating mass at the rim is noticeable. I know you can achieve this with very light carbon rim brake rims, but at the expense of braking capability. These are mountain bike rims remember (so relatively robust in the grand scheme of things), but weigh significantly less than 280g, so imagine what would be possible if manufacturers turned their attention to road-specific rims without a brake track.

The braking performance is just amazing. With 140mm at the back and 160mm at the front, and the steepness of climbs over here, braking has been consistent, powerful and unaffected by weather. I have had no problem with overheating at all.

I honestly can't see a drawback. The usual responses are:

weight? - the bike is well under 17lbs for a 58cm frame built with standard parts. For somebody my size, that's very respectable, and the ride quality is sublime. I dare say you could get well under 15lbs with a bit of effort (and cash).

wheel changes? - I don't race, so who cares!

danger? - If I crash, the small rotor is the least of my worries. Have you seen what a chainring can do in a crash?! And having lost the top of my thumb in a crash as a result of getting it caught in a wheel with bladed spokes, there is far more danger from both wheels than the rotors.

cost - OK, so here we reach the major stumbling block for most people I fear. At the point of changing over to discs, it means frame, forks, wheels and brakes need to be changed (plus making any spare wheels redundant). It isn't exactly a 'running change' I appreciate, but at the point of changing to a new bike, then it is definitely worth making the move.


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 Post subject: Re: Moots Disc Road
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:17 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:07 pm
Posts: 2
Hi there

Great bikes you have there. I have a question regarding the Enve wheels. You mention they are the offroad XC tubular wheels but which ones exactly? From the Enve website there is no differentiation between road and cross wheels so I am assuming this is in the Mountain section. Within that I am assuming it must be 27.5XC wheel to get the sizing right for a road bike but this appears to be a tubeless clincher wheel and not tubular.

Claude


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 Post subject: Re: Moots Disc Road
Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:17 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: Moots Disc Road
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:30 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:08 pm
Posts: 367
Both sets of wheels are ENVE XC 29er rims. 29 inch is the same as 700c.

http://www.enve.com/wheels/mtb/29XC.aspx

The CX bike uses the clincher version, and the road bike uses the tubular version.

Both wide, relatively aero, and perfectly suited for the road. In fact both sets are lighter than the soon-to-be-released 3.4 disc rims, primarily because they were designed from the ground up as disc specific with no brake track, whereas the new 3.4 disc rims started out as the rim brake version.


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 Post subject: Re: Moots Disc Road
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:38 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:07 pm
Posts: 2
Thanks for that. One other question. I assume you can use the Avid disc brakes with your SR shifters because the Avids are not hydraulic. Were you tempted to go the hyrdraulic route with the SRAM or new shimano instead?

Claude


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 Post subject: Re: Moots Disc Road
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:06 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:08 pm
Posts: 367
I like Campagnolo. Have used it for years.

Couldn't bring myself to use Shimano or SRAM.

The Avids work perfectly well with the SR EPS levers. Having used hydraulics off road for years, the mechanicals have been amazingly good.


Last edited by solarider on Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Moots Disc Road
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:27 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:22 am
Posts: 166
these are some good points.. I recently picked up a BMC commuter with disc brakes.. my first non MTB with disc.. and I absolutely hate the brakes. SRAM elixir setup, brand new bike and the rotors were rubbing on the calipers before I even sat on the bike. I know, apples and oranges - I really am curious to see how a prime example of how road disc setups feel..

Its amazing what we are just on the cusp of ultimate road machinery. Today, it's possible to get a carbon road bike with disc brakes, electronic shifting, full electronic telemetry, and video capture (via Garmin virb) .... the last couple of years have been insane.


solarider wrote:
The Barfly 2.0 really makes the junction box neat. Best mount out there IMHO.

I have had the pleasure of a few weeks and a few miles on the bike now, and I am even more convinced that this is the future of road bikes.

The lower rotating mass at the rim is noticeable. I know you can achieve this with very light carbon rim brake rims, but at the expense of braking capability. These are mountain bike rims remember (so relatively robust in the grand scheme of things), but weigh significantly less than 280g, so imagine what would be possible if manufacturers turned their attention to road-specific rims without a brake track.

The braking performance is just amazing. With 140mm at the back and 160mm at the front, and the steepness of climbs over here, braking has been consistent, powerful and unaffected by weather. I have had no problem with overheating at all.

I honestly can't see a drawback. The usual responses are:

weight? - the bike is well under 17lbs for a 58cm frame built with standard parts. For somebody my size, that's very respectable, and the ride quality is sublime. I dare say you could get well under 15lbs with a bit of effort (and cash).

wheel changes? - I don't race, so who cares!

danger? - If I crash, the small rotor is the least of my worries. Have you seen what a chainring can do in a crash?! And having lost the top of my thumb in a crash as a result of getting it caught in a wheel with bladed spokes, there is far more danger from both wheels than the rotors.

cost - OK, so here we reach the major stumbling block for most people I fear. At the point of changing over to discs, it means frame, forks, wheels and brakes need to be changed (plus making any spare wheels redundant). It isn't exactly a 'running change' I appreciate, but at the point of changing to a new bike, then it is definitely worth making the move.


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 Post subject: Re: Moots Disc Road
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:44 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:08 pm
Posts: 367
Mine work brilliantly and consistently on all three bikes.

The key is setup since tolerances are extremely tight with disc brakes (a major stumbling block to adoption in the peloton because of wheel changes). There are three key steps:

1) Getting the caliper centred and parallel is important. Like the BB7, your Elixirs use Avid's excellent CPR conical washers, so getting the caliper parallel should be a breeze.

2) You might need to true the rotors. Just like a wheel, but on a smaller scale. This can be a cause of rubbing.

3) Bleeding/cables depending on your system. This will only change brake feel though, not cure pad rubbing. That can only be solved by steps 1 and 2.

Good luck! It can be a bit fiddly, but do it once and they are set for a long time.


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 Post subject: Re: Moots Disc Road
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:56 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:28 pm
Posts: 897
Carbon Tubular disc road wheels= standard parts? Where?
My real question is why disc and tubulars?
It seems that you would want discs for extreme conditions. But lightweight carbon tubulars are not what you want for extreme conditions?

solarider wrote:
The Barfly 2.0 really makes the junction box neat. Best mount out there IMHO.

I have had the pleasure of a few weeks and a few miles on the bike now, and I am even more convinced that this is the future of road bikes.

The lower rotating mass at the rim is noticeable. I know you can achieve this with very light carbon rim brake rims, but at the expense of braking capability. These are mountain bike rims remember (so relatively robust in the grand scheme of things), but weigh significantly less than 280g, so imagine what would be possible if manufacturers turned their attention to road-specific rims without a brake track.

The braking performance is just amazing. With 140mm at the back and 160mm at the front, and the steepness of climbs over here, braking has been consistent, powerful and unaffected by weather. I have had no problem with overheating at all.

I honestly can't see a drawback. The usual responses are:

weight? - the bike is well under 17lbs for a 58cm frame built with standard parts. For somebody my size, that's very respectable, and the ride quality is sublime. I dare say you could get well under 15lbs with a bit of effort (and cash).

wheel changes? - I don't race, so who cares!

danger? - If I crash, the small rotor is the least of my worries. Have you seen what a chainring can do in a crash?! And having lost the top of my thumb in a crash as a result of getting it caught in a wheel with bladed spokes, there is far more danger from both wheels than the rotors.

cost - OK, so here we reach the major stumbling block for most people I fear. At the point of changing over to discs, it means frame, forks, wheels and brakes need to be changed (plus making any spare wheels redundant). It isn't exactly a 'running change' I appreciate, but at the point of changing to a new bike, then it is definitely worth making the move.


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 Post subject: Re: Moots Disc Road
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:07 am 
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Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 11:16 pm
Posts: 118
Wow, so much great, very like. :p

Boots2000 - those tubs are 29er MTB wheels, so they should be tough enough for most things.

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 Post subject: Re: Moots Disc Road
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:15 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:08 pm
Posts: 367
I prefer the ride quality of tubs.

Discs allow for better braking on steeper descents even in the dry without the fear of heat build up at the rim softening the glue (I still have nightmares about Beloki's crash!). A perfect combo!

High end, but standard parts.

The wheels are indeed MTB rims, so plenty strong enough. I have also used them on my MTB off road and they are fantastic. Most current road disc wheels just use adapted rim brake rims. Zipps still even have the brake track. Most MTB rims were designed without a brake track from the start, and have been engineered for the different stresses that discs place on a wheel. The ENVE XCs have a very similar profile to Zipp 303s, making them a great all round choice. I had concerns over them possibly having a shallower rim bed to cope with wider MTB tyres, but it is the same as on their road wheels.


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 Post subject: Re: Moots Disc Road
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:48 am 
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Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:12 am
Posts: 159
That is a beautiful bike (so are the others). Of course, I love disc brakes, so don't need convincing.

I imagine a big factor in your low build weight there are the wheels. My carbon disc road bike came in around 17lbs 4oz complete, but my LB U45/Novatec wheelset was just shy of 1600 grams. But the wheels cost me around $800, so I'm happy with the value proposition. I'm still contemplating the Whisky fork, which would save me a little weight (but the motivation would be for the 15mm thru-axle. I'm running 9mm thru-bolt right now, which seems to make significant difference).

I debated the Avid BB7 SL brakes as they look so bling. I use the standard [road] BB7s on my CX/commuter and they have been just fantastic. (I also use BB7s on my MTB; the setup I have feels so great that I just can't justify switching to hydros.) I ended up deciding to try out the TRP Spyre brakes on the road build. I'm hoping that the dual-piston might help with keeping adjustments minimal. There are two 3mm bolts to adjust the pads in, but there is also a barrel adjuster. The adjustments are not indexed like with Avid, though, so if you had to make adjustments (e.g. w/ wheel change) it would be harder to have a simple formula (e.g. "3 clicks on inside, 5 on outside").

Running the pads close does seem to be extra important with road. Just not enough cable pull on these levers, I guess. I've had generally bad luck with my rotors getting out of true. (I wonder if the dual-piston calipers will help with that? I haven't ridden enough miles to comment on that yet.) I'm using the HSX rotors that have an aluminum carrier; I read somewhere that those designs are less prone to warp. If this works out well, I'll switch to those on my commuter too.

Anyway, thanks for sharing the build details. Very elegant bikes. Eventually I'm going to replace my CF disc road frame with a custom ti frame. The CF was a [relatively] cheap way to put the toe in the waters on this road disc thing. I'm hooked. Probably next one will be Di2+hydro, though we'll see what Sram is offering then.


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 Post subject: Re: Moots Disc Road
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:29 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:08 pm
Posts: 367
The BB7s are great brakes. I don't feel the need for hydo, but as soon as Campagnolo enter the market, no doubt I will change. They are currently working on them with Formula apparently, and Formula do make some very light weight, high performance stoppers, so the wait should be worth it. At least when it happens, I have the frames, forks and wheels ready!

I swapped out all of the steel bolts on the BB7s on my winter bike to titanium, and they now weight exactly the same as the BB7 SLs on the 2 Moots. I have never really been one for swapping bolts to save weight. Never thought it would make that much of a difference. But I was surprised.

The Spires look interesting. For sure having one fixed pad is not an ideal solution on the BB7s. I know that they have been subject to a recall (possible to dislodge the bearings if the brake is pulled too far without either the rotor or a spacer in between IIRC?), which put me off and the Avids are a very reliable (or just plain old!) design.

Now that I have been riding EPS for 2 years, going back to the winter bike with mechanical does feel a bit of a step back. If SRAM nail both hydro and electronic, it could put them well ahead of the game. I know I run Avids which are SRAM, but generally I find their stuff to be a bit 'plastic' in feel. Will be interesting to see how their electronic group set looks. I guess the announcement about the recalled hydros being ready to be reissued in April will coincide with their electronic announcement!


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 Post subject: Re: Moots Disc Road
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:01 am 
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Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:12 am
Posts: 159
Yeah, an interesting time as electronic and hydro team up. I have generally been wary of hydros, probably for no good reason. Just have known lots of issues (decreased braking in cold, pain-in-the-butt maintenance/bleeding, issues with hanging bikes vertically) and haven't felt that great of a benefit over my mechanical setups on the few demo rides I have tried. But I know it is the future; it seems likely that I will switch on road first.

One of my big motivations for trying the Spyres was heel clearance concerns. My frame has 410mm stays and I was worried that size-48 shoes would be hitting the calipers (if not the chainstays themselves, given 135mm rear spacing). The Spyre is narrower than the BB7 and as it turns out does not protrude past the chainstay when mounted. (I do not know for sure if the Avid would have either, to be fair.) That makes me happy since I do really only have a few mm of heel clearance back there. The recall was certainly worrisome -- and annoying as I waited for new parts to complete my build. The new calipers seem to weigh 9g more (non-SLC version), but they are still listing the old weights on the product pages. The new calipers also have pad adjustment bolts for inboard and outboard pads, which I believe is different. Anyway, stopping power has been excellent. They claim it is better than Avid, but while mine do feel better than my BB7s, I introduced lots of variables -- likely the Yokozuna Reaction housing being the real differentiator (compared to Jagwire Ripcord with my BB7s).


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 Post subject: Re: Moots Disc Road
PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:32 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 8:23 pm
Posts: 96
Awesome bikes. How have you found charging the battery? Do you use an external port or remove the seatpost while charging? How high above the bottle cage bolt do you need to put the magnet band to turn the system off? Thanks. I just ordered an upgrade kit.

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 Post subject: Re: Moots Disc Road
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:57 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:53 am
Posts: 4
Nice build. Very practical (except maybe the tubies) for real world non uci use. Disc brakes are what's going to make carbon clinchers practical without worrying about rim failure under braking.

I built a similar one this spring with a DeSalvo ti frame, di2, etc. it's proven perfect for my use and I love the disc brakes.


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 Post subject: Re: Moots Disc Road
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:57 am 


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