HOT: Active* forum members generally gain 5% discount at starbike.com store!
Weight Weenies
* FAQ    * Search    * Trending Topics
* Login   * Register
HOME Listings Blog NEW Articles FAQ Contact About




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 211 posts ] 
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 15  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 5:39 pm
Posts: 559
Location: Here, there and everywhere
Definitely very interested in anything that might perform better in mud.

My set up was new KMC X10-Sl, New XTR clutch rear mech, New 11-36 XTR cassette on a 2012 Cannondale Scalpel. I know you mention possible issues with KMC but I can't see this being such an issue when the mud is a bigger factor to performance on Narrow/ Wide.

I think even the spiderless tooth profile could be a reasonable compromise but as you say perhaps lacks a little chain retention. This is where I start thinking maybe a normal ring, no chain guide and a clutch mech might even work better in mud. It is just I don't know anyone trying it since we think we need some help from the chainring too (and most likely we do) so no-one even considers normal ring/ clutch mech.

I also noticed the narrow/ wide profile on the FSA in the pinkbike article and don't think that specific design solves anything wrt mud performance.

What I think will work best is tall, maybe hooked teeth, shaped to allow mud to push down and off the ring (so FSA(ish) minus Narrow/ Wide). Hopefully dry performance could approach the NW rings but exceed the NW in mud and exceed a normal ring in all conditions. Certainly an interesting problem to solve!

I think what people really appreciate is manufacturers being open and honest so that has to be commended with Absolute Black :beerchug: Plus the finishing/ weight/ aesthetics are beautiful :D


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:52 pm 
Offline
in the industry
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:26 pm
Posts: 328
Location: UK
PLEASE check with sram/shimano chain. 99% of problems is due to KMC chain. They are out of spec by 0.05mm on the link and this is well enough if yuo count mud and 10links for eg. I had few customers with that and when they switched to different chain it cured the issue mostly (except clay mud)

_________________
http://www.absoluteblack.cc
http://www.facebook.com/absoluteblack.cc
http://www.keywin.cc


Top
 Profile  
 
Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:52 pm 
  • 15.90 € (including 19% VAT)
  • 160 components by absoluteBLACK


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:57 pm 
Offline
in the industry
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:26 pm
Posts: 328
Location: UK
to add to that - regular ring with no chain device and with clutch mech will not work. There has been many people trying that, me included.
But my ring with no clutch mech will work with no problem. So this proves that tooth design is helping here a lot. Like i wrote i have lots of customers using that setup on 9speed drivetrain with no clutch mech. They are really happy.

to explain why chain fells of from regular ring:
Chain bounces from side to side on the ring and that is what makes chain go off. I have cured it with different tooth profile on my spiderless rings (non thick/thin), but it is still not enough to hold the chain in very demanding conditions like enduro. That's why by now only thin/thick design with wide tooths solves all the chain retention problems.

_________________
http://www.absoluteblack.cc
http://www.facebook.com/absoluteblack.cc
http://www.keywin.cc


Last edited by tehan on Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:01 pm 
Offline
in the industry
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:34 pm
Posts: 543
Location: Insjön, SWEDEN
Tehan: explain for me, I run KMC X10SL on most of my bikes but also CN-HG94, I feel the HG-94 is very vulnerable to weather changes than KMC X10.
I want to know what you mean with out of spec?

_________________
Experimental Prototype


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 5:39 pm
Posts: 559
Location: Here, there and everywhere
Ok, good to know a normal chainring is not such as good option.

----

I would be interested to know how the spiderless profile or a further improved profile performs when used chain guide free and in mud for XC.

----

The KMC chain issue: I understand the concerns you have as a manufacturer of a chainring requiring exact tolerances to work well. However as I see it for a narrow/ wide design either 1) The chain is a tight fit and holds well in the dry but clogs/ drops in mud as there isn't enough clearance with mud in the equation or 2) The chain is a loose fit, clears mud a bit better but holds the chain less well.

I don't see how you can have the chain gripping well on the ring AND mud performance with a narrow/ wide chainring (any NW ring not just Absolute Black). Add to that the wear of the chainring any anything requiring such tolerances that chain manufacturer must be excluded does not seem practical for MTB. Hence maybe something else other than narrow/ wide teeth should be trying to hold the chain on the ring (another profile/ teeth height/ hooked teeth) when taking mud/ teeth wear/ chain spec in to account alongside the required tolerances.

I also have very poor experiences of Shimano and SRAM chains (before going to a single ring) as I found they did not last well in the wet weather, stretch very quickly, get stiff links even with OCD maintenance, wear the cassette quickly and generally get poor shifting quickly when compared to KMC which have proved to be far more robust.

I know it sounds like I am being difficult but that would be my honest opinion and experiences. I don't know any other company trying to get over these possible issues so I am really happy for AB and would very happily try any other products :)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:20 pm 
Offline
in the industry
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:26 pm
Posts: 328
Location: UK
My rings are done to the highest possible tolerances. So it meshes really well with a chain links leaving only specific amount of play. If you put a new chain from Sram or Shimano on my ring it almost fits like a glove with precise calculated movement. Even in the mud it works for many providing it's not clay type of mud.

But when you put new KMC 10/11spd chain on it, trouble starts in the dirt. So what i found is that chainlinks are shorter by what i assume around 0.05mm (that is hard to measure). This is enough to create trouble when small amounts of mud will be in there as it even shortens the distance between each tooth. So chain goes on the top sometimes. This has happened only with KMC chain, but never with Sram or Shimano.

_________________
http://www.absoluteblack.cc
http://www.facebook.com/absoluteblack.cc
http://www.keywin.cc


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:29 pm 
Offline
in the industry
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:34 pm
Posts: 543
Location: Insjön, SWEDEN
My next question is maybe KMC done their homework right this time as they are one of the best chains I´ve used, consistently good shifts in whole training sessions instead for great the first 1/3, mediocre in the next third and sub par in last third before going home and hosing off the bike.
Yes mud is a natural part of my home terrain here.

_________________
Experimental Prototype


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:32 pm 
Offline
in the industry
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:26 pm
Posts: 328
Location: UK
Dan - you confuses a lot of things. Chain retention does not depend strictly on tooth width. It's completly different story and i don't want to disclose anything as many people read the forum:)

My ring works very well even when completely worn and there is no way to put new chain on it. I already have few testers who done that (after 9 months of active riding) and i am really happy with the result. So chain retention persists regardless wear.

KMC chains are fine with normal tooths as tolerances (or rather shape of tooth) is very slim. so there is a huge room for play for the chain and not that much of support. My rings will last you a full season and will hold chain well.
But KMC chains like i wrote are not holding 12.7mm per link like industry standard provides (25.4mm for a 2 links) so this causes the trouble.

_________________
http://www.absoluteblack.cc
http://www.facebook.com/absoluteblack.cc
http://www.keywin.cc


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 5:39 pm
Posts: 559
Location: Here, there and everywhere
OK so KMC tolerances might be an issue. I must also agree with Mattias that KMC chains are super robust to muddy MTB (or normal MTB as we have to call it in the UK). Far, far superior to the life and performance I could get out of a SRAM or Shimano chain. I think it is only fair to try a SRAM/ Shimano chain just as an experiment.

I would still maintain mud/ teeth wear/ chain wear is always going to interfere with any design that is so carefully calculated and intoleratant to these possible variations. As I keep saying this is not something unique to Absolute Black. Even non-clay mud sticks to everything- it is just the nature of a muddy MTB ride/ race. This is why I see an opportunity for more MTB/ CX (i.e. mud) friendly profiles.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:46 pm 
Offline
in the industry
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:26 pm
Posts: 328
Location: UK
Mattias Hellöre wrote:
My next question is maybe KMC done their homework right this time as they are one of the best chains I´ve used, consistently good shifts in whole training sessions instead for great the first 1/3, mediocre in the next third and sub par in last third before going home and hosing off the bike.
Yes mud is a natural part of my home terrain here.


Like i wrote:
KMC chains are not holding 12.7mm per link like industry standard provides (25.4mm for a 2 links) so this causes the trouble.
I would not call that doing their homework great, regardless how they hold in the bad weather.

Personally i am using dura-ace chains (both 10 and 11spd) and i don't complain at all riding in UK conditions.

_________________
http://www.absoluteblack.cc
http://www.facebook.com/absoluteblack.cc
http://www.keywin.cc


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:53 pm 
Offline
in the industry
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:26 pm
Posts: 328
Location: UK
DanW wrote:
OK so KMC tolerances might be an issue. I must also agree with Mattias that KMC chains are super robust to muddy MTB (or normal MTB as we have to call it in the UK). Far, far superior to the life and performance I could get out of a SRAM or Shimano chain. I think it is only fair to try a SRAM/ Shimano chain just as an experiment.

I would still maintain mud/ teeth wear/ chain wear is always going to interfere with any design that is so carefully calculated and intoleratant to these possible variations. As I keep saying this is not something unique to Absolute Black. Even non-clay mud sticks to everything- it is just the nature of a muddy MTB ride/ race. This is why I see an opportunity for more MTB/ CX (i.e. mud) friendly profiles.


Dan please read above:) wear on my rings does not affect the chain retention. So even worn chainring will perform like almost new with same chain to the point you will not be able to put new chain on the ring. But who expects even more? - this is wearing part. So it is still great, as to the end of the life of the product you have consistent performance.

It's like with the cars. When manufacturer spec says it takes diesel you can't complain that you can't use regular gasoline. This is the way it is.
KMC would work if they could keep industry standards created over a century ago. But that still leaves you with so many other manufacturers of chains. By now i found a trouble only with KMC.

Sram and Shimano also say that they recommend only their chain. This is respectable by everyone here. So don't understand why it would be an issue here.
KMC will not work well with original XX1 as well.

_________________
http://www.absoluteblack.cc
http://www.facebook.com/absoluteblack.cc
http://www.keywin.cc


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 5:39 pm
Posts: 559
Location: Here, there and everywhere
I can appreciate the issue with KMC chains for your chainring. It would be nice to put the KMC chain issues up on your website, perhaps as a FAQ as I am sure few people are aware of this. KMC make SRAM chains I think so the tolerance issues seems strange although entirely possible.

Quote:
So i don't think it's much of an issue as not many people are brave enough to ride in such demanding conditions. After such ride you have worn bottom bracket and brake pads, so let's be more fair looking at end of spectrum of conditions most people do ride.


You say yourself performance is not ideal in mud and this appears inherent to the design regardless of the specific details. To say don't ride in mud is crazy to most people who love to MTB/ CX. Having ridden all around in a variety of places mud sticks to everything clay based or not. If I did not ride in mud then I would only ride perhaps two months a year. I am sure it is the same for many others and it isn't an extreme end of the spectrum to require mud performance on a MTB. On of the attractions of going to one ring and losing the chain guide is less places for mud to collect/ ease of maintenance/ cleaning. If there is a way to get some mud performance, perhaps with new teeth profiles you have in mind then that is excellent (of course I will give another chain a go too) :D


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:30 pm 
Offline
in the industry
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:26 pm
Posts: 328
Location: UK
These chainrings perform well in the "mud" with every chain except KMC.

_________________
http://www.absoluteblack.cc
http://www.facebook.com/absoluteblack.cc
http://www.keywin.cc


Last edited by tehan on Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:09 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:48 am
Posts: 1064
DanW wrote:
KMC make SRAM chains I think so the tolerance issues seems strange although entirely possible.

SRAM make their own chains and KMC make most of the Shimano chains AFAIK...


Top
 Profile  
 
Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:09 am 
  • 15.90 € (including 19% VAT)
  • 160 components by absoluteBLACK


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:00 pm 
Offline
in the industry
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:26 pm
Posts: 328
Location: UK
A great review from NSMB.com
Proves basically that you don't need a clutch mech to ride like a pro:) They used it in every possible condition - mud included, with no drops. So i hope at least that now it sounds more convincing to you:)

http://www.nsmb.com/absolute-black-xx1-style-chainring/


Image

_________________
http://www.absoluteblack.cc
http://www.facebook.com/absoluteblack.cc
http://www.keywin.cc


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 211 posts ] 
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 15  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

   Similar Topics   Author   Replies   Views   Last post 
There are no new unread posts for this topic. S Works Shoes Alternative

[ Go to page: 1, 2, 3 ]

in Road

Devon

36

4443

Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:34 pm

kgt View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. alternative SRM mounts

in Road

brearley

4

608

Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:16 am

Causidicus View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. 11 speed chain - alternative to XX1

in MTB

mattpage

14

1532

Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:00 pm

mattpage View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. di2 sprint shifter alternative

in Road

grouk

13

712

Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:56 pm

grouk View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. Lightweight wide Rim alternative

in MTB

andreszucs

10

950

Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:06 am

jeffreyj View the latest post


It is currently Sat Dec 20, 2014 9:12 pm

All times are UTC + 1 hour




Advertising   –  FAQ   –  Contact   –  Convert   –  About

© Weight Weenies 2000-2013
hosted by starbike.com


How to get rid of these ads? Just register!


Powered by phpBB