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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:12 pm 
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Location: Tropical Wales
Hi Marcin,

I've had a few rides on the SRAM spiderless I recently bought and have to say it is a really nice bit of bling. It seems slightly smoother than the 104BCD AB NW ring I had on there before (in the largest sprocket) but I guess that might be helped by a slightly different chainline on the new SRAM crankset. Smallest margins seem to make a lot of difference. Anyway, great job on the spiderless rings, look and work really nicely! :D

DanW


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Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:12 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:58 am 
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So,
it's again this time of the year where I am pleased to invite you to visit us at Eurobike. We will have our stand on Tune's booth again.
There is few new things coming:) One of them are trail/enduro hubs. They look nothing you have seen till today.

Come and visit us!
Marcin

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:33 pm 
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It's time for a new product:)

Image
Image

You will see more information after Eurobike and they will be available also just after Eurobike (2nd September)

*Diamond shape body for increased stiffness
*Huge 17x30x7mm ABEC 5, Enduro® low friction bearings with graphite retainer cages for durability. 4 of them in the rear and 2 up front.
*Hardened, Stainless Steel freehub for extreme longevity and cassette „dig in” prevention
* Patented Magnetic ratchet system. One of its kind magnetic system which can withstand any given conditions with unchanged performance.
* Only one moving part in ratchet engaging system.
* External bearing preload nut in both hubs to keep bearings in optimal condition
* Can be disassembled and cleaned by hand.
* Low friction labyrinth seals in both hubs.
* Designed for XC, Marathon, Trail, aggressive Enduro

Front: 15mm (138g)
Rear: 142 x 12 11spd (268g) (XD version as well)

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:37 pm 
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Diamond shape for increased stiffness, compared to what?
Any FEA to back it up?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:54 pm 
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Are hub centre sections not stiff enough? Be honest, you wanted to make it look funky :D

Also, (and I'm not just being difficult) but what is so one of a kind about the magnetic freehub design compared to Tune, DT Swiss, Soul, Kapius etc? Genuine question and I am looking forward to seeing more of these exciting new products :thumbup:

Edit: What is the compatibility with other axle standards?


Last edited by DanW on Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:31 am 
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A another question, as machinist, its time consuming and will not be perfectly good to make even thickness of this hubshell inside.

The magnetic freehub design is a welcome step to right direction, patents in my experience is a costly step that isnt neccessary.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:49 am 
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Quote:
patents in my experience is a costly step that isnt neccessary


It could be a design patented by others, not necessarily by AB. I am wondering if it might be the Tune design given the association with Tune???

Still, it is great to see AB producing things that are out of the ordinary


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 2:02 pm 
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Mattias Hellöre wrote:
Diamond shape for increased stiffness, compared to what?
Any FEA to back it up?


I want to see this as well. Generally, when people state stuff like this, I want to see a reference.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:08 am 
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I agree with Mattias, machining anything near that shape internally would be a pain in the rear. Unless of course you are casting the shape or something similar and then post machining it to get the hard edges. Given that it is all machining, would the increased stiffness be from the excess material? And of course, what kind of stiffness? Bending? Torsional?

And the patent for the magnetic pawl is being licensed.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:39 pm 
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:) i see few engineers here.

There are few things to consider:
Who said we did machine it from inside same as from the outside?
Who knows exactly how it is machined? or how difficult the process is.
Consider what happens when someone tension the spokes wrongly/not equal tension on same spokes (as not everyone uses "professional" wheel builder). Then what happens to the hub shell and bearing seats most importantly. Then what happens to the life span of those bearings. These are the very small details people usually don't see.

What i can say is internal and outside shape is done to 0.05mm tolerance and races for bearings to microns. So no one needs to worry about that. We use state of the art machinery.
Yes, we license the patent from someone else who already proven its great durability for years. I believe that this ratchet system is one of the best in the market from many reasons. We have made few minor improvements and here we are with the hubs. It's not Tune's patent on the side note.
I can't disclose much of the information as too many clever people reads this forum:) No other company shares with small details either.
have a good night guys.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:34 am 
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Not an engineer but still curious none the less :D

Interesting approach to the hub shell design but solving a problem that doesn't really exist (bit like the narrow/ wide singlespeed sprocket, sorry!)- I don't think you should have to try and second guess if someone is hamfisted building their wheels or not. If they are not professionally built or the customer doesn't know what they are doing then that is their problem IMO. Plus, round hub shells have existed for years without too many problems...

... so the reason for sharing this opinion is that this is Weightweenies :D Could the hubs have been made lighter without the funky hub shell shape? The only common hubs heavier than your design are Hope Pro II and Chris King which seems a departure from the light and bling products previously coming from AB. American Classic, Syntace, DT Swiss, BOR, Acros, even XTR (front) are all similar weight or lighter. Could the hub shells have been more conventional to start getting to American Classic weight or does the design add no weight at all?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:18 am 
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I see no problem to sharing pictures of product that already is made and shown to public. Companies do it all the time. If anything have invented something new, without scientific data to back it up it´s still only marketing ploy for me.

I could buy a hub and disassemble it and publish pics, what´s the problem really?
268 gram a rear hub, thats the XTR range of weight. Bear in mind the XTR freehub is in titanium and have a good reputation.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:09 pm 
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Must admit I'm with Dan and Mattias, I wasn't sure of the point of the shape of the machined shell (and I'm none the wiser - are you actually saying that building with uneven tensions compromises bearing longevity? Not convinced on that one...), and they seem heavy for the cost based on your previous products.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:32 pm 
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Why should anyone build a wheel with uneven tension on one flange?, taking care of a small amount of people who can´t build wheels are not realistic.

I would rather to see a signficant drop of weight and with the same or better axle stiffness than competitors, there you can elongate bearing longevity.
They die mostly because of weatherproofing or lack of this and flex of the axle.
Ever wondered why Shimano stick with cone and loose balls in their hubs?
Even with flexy axles they can roll smoothly and wear a lot less regardless of axle flexing.

I don´t think it´s cheaper with grinded bearing seats and threaded axles on higher end Shimano hubs than pressed in ball bearings.

But that´s me.

/Mattias.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 8:36 pm 
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for the start xtr is much heavier than our hubs (at least rear).
second thing is you would be surprised how many people build their wheels improperly tensioned or improperly trued after some time. Difference in best and good product is that best product is "idiot" proof as people say.

Like i wrote somewhere else, you (as each of you separate) think and act locally as you see by eyes of your experience. We have to take in account more factors not just what is happening in Wales, or other part of the world for that matter. People do different stuff with wheels.
I had that privilege to work for few big bike companies before and i know exactly what fails in the hubs and what's not as i have see thousands of them broken from different makers. You will not find this in books or forums as every manufacturer always hide that data. Based on this knowledge we created our hubs. Every single detail is well though.

Yes, they are a bit heavier than lightest ones on the market. We did not aim this time at being lightest, but most durable. Brands you have just pointed out use quite small bearings compared to ours. Our bearings alone weight 60g more per set than the ones from Tune hubs for eg. We use 6903 all over both hubs and freehub.
Bigger bearings roll better as well.

We also aim at trail and enduro crowd rather than XC. Many of the hubs mentioned earlier are only rated for XC and Marathon. We aim up to very aggressive enduro with no weight limit. It's like with rims. XC rim is lighter than all mountain one as it has to be burlier...

We can make adapters to the bearings like extralite does (effectively changing bearing size) and save 50g in a second but this is not our goal here.

Lastly. Hubs inside are kind of "round". Making them look like outside would be madness:) This in cross section gives very interesting structure and adds only small bit of weight.. Mattias, if you want to buy one and cut in half then no problem:)

njee20 - uneven tension compromises bearing life. Bearings usually sit at the flange. Now if you start pulling that flange in different directions by spokes it will start to deform very slightly. If tension after lacing is even all is good. If not then you leave internal stresses in the flange and bearing sit is not "round" anymore. Of course we speak about very small differences here, but if you do that with another flange as well, bearings are no longer in the axis. That just puts stresses to the bearing and they wear out quicker.
In very rare occurrence you can even twist hub shell by lacing it:
http://oli-roadworks.blogspot.co.uk/201 ... y-day.html

just scroll few pictures down when you see silver hub.

forgot to add DanW - (about narrow/wide singlespeed cogs) you would be shocked by response we got from our customers... remember if something sounds silly to you it does not necessarily mean same to others. We solved problem here and these people who experienced it before, appreciate it greatly. Like i wrote above we have to think globally as a company, not locally. So some products may sound not right for you, but they sound excellent for others...
The better the product usually is the more polarizing opinions we usually get:)

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Last edited by tehan on Sun Aug 24, 2014 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 8:36 pm 
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